Birdingbury show insurance requirements

[markaren76]

hello all

I have seen the advertisement for the July Birdingbury Country Show. I am considering putting an application forward. however I am a bit perplexed about the stipulation to have my insurance documents showing I have £5.000.000 public liability insurance and cover to attends shows and rallies.

I've not come across this before. Have I been lucky or am I being a bit simple?

If this really is the requirement is it likely to be pushed at other shows and if so would this not prevent many owners of classic cars attending without extraordinary cost.

Thoughts?

Mark

[Phil Hetherington]

I've come across something similar but nobody at any show has ever asked to see my insurance documents. I did query it once with my (previous) insurer and they told me I didn't need specific cover if the rally was static or any road-runs non-competitive. It would be worth asking your insurer if you actually have this cover. But I bet you don't, it sounds like a stupid requirement. It would make sense if you were driving a steam roller perhaps, so it may be worth checking with the show's organisers why they are asking for this. In any case any show will need it's own public liability insurance and I don't see how they can pass on any liability by asking car owners to tick a box on a form.

[markaren76]

Cheers Phil. If it turns out to be real it is likely to put a considerable number of folk off going to such events to show off their vehicles. I can understand it for businesses. Before I retired I recall seeing some companies requesting up to £10m liabilities, however even some larger companies refused to go that high.

Mark

[markaren76]

WOULD HAVE LOVED TO ATTEND BUT CANNOT HONESTLY JUSTIFY THE ADDED INSURANCE PREMIUM NEEDED TO MEET THE ORGANISERS £10MILLION LIABILITY REQUIREMENT!

MARK

[1957steve]

Our chairman, Peter Lockley, normally organises a club attendance at Birdingbury, so why not attend with the club and take advantage of the show insurance the club provides for members.

[PWK367]

Sadly, the entry form on the Club's website asks specifically for proof of £5,000,000 Public Liability.

Please could the Club Stand Organisers confirm that Club Members booking through the Club will be covered by the Club's own Event Insurance.

Will exhibiting Members receive confirmation that the Club is covering their liability?

[plockley]

The law states that you must have insurance for liability to third parties for a motor vehicle on a road or other public place.
Birdingbury Showground is a place to which the public has access and therefore if your car is driven on the Showground without insurance you are committing a criminal offence of driving without insurance and the organisers could be prosecuted for permitting you to do so.
You will note that you are instructed not to drive on the rally field between 10a.m. and 5p.m. save under supervision to reach the arena.If you ran down someone whilst disobeying that instruction you would be liable and your insurance would have to meet that claim.
As for the public liability angle,simply being in charge of a vehicle in a public place necessitates your having that cover.The small print on your policy will advise that you are covered for up to £5m. for public liability .Mine through Peter James Insurance certainly does but it is only in the small print in the policy booklet.
The organisers at Birdingbury have their own public liability policy and do not seek to get out of their own liability.There are some show organisers who do and ask people to sign a declaration absolving show organisers of any liability.Birdingbury are not asking anyone to absolve them from liability where that liability is justifiably theirs.
However in certain circumstances a negligent act involving a vehicle cannot necessarily be attributed to the organisers ,for example where someone irresponsibly opens their bonnet with the engine running and leaves it unsupervised resulting in a child losing fingers.That would properly be a claim under your own policy.
The Standard Motor Club has a public liability policy which has just been renewed.That covers the Club for public liability on a stand but it would be the vehicle owner's insurance which would have to stand the loss if the incident occurred through the vehicle being driven on the stand.
In asking for sight of a policy Birdingbury organisers are simply being responsible and acting reasonably.
They are not doing anything unreasonable and all the posts on this thread seem to have arisen through ignorance of the law.
If you produce a copy of a valid motor policy with your entry for Birdingbury and ensure you have a valid policy with you at the show you will gain entry.
If you are stupid enough not to have valid insurance on your vehicle you will not be permitted entry .
I have to say that this thread is beginning to turn into hysteria and I hope this post will put a stop to that.
Just as a final point ,should someone on the rally field be tempted to partake of too much in the beer tent and then drove or attempted to drive their vehicle they could still be breathalysed and if convicted disqualified from driving.
Should anyone wish to attend Birdingbury Show this year please send me an email and I can email an entry form to you.
Peter Lockley

[markaren76]

Sorry Peter for taking this again. Your response does not answer the question.

I mentioned £10m earlier. apologies, this should have read £5m

I agree of course that any responsible road user must have car insurance. That is clear. I have scoured my own insurance and cannot find any mention of a public liability limit. Yet it is from a known classic car insurance group (Chauser Insurance, via Grove & Dean) and is as far as I can see legally suitable. I have also dropped a note to G&D to ask about public liability.(waiting)

The issue for me is if, as you suggest, the provision of public liability cover is 'normal', then why is that point specifically drawn out in the application form? Especially as most drivers carrying their insurance documents would only carry the cover note not the whole policy, as only this part is required by law to be shown when requested. Or is company law going to be applied here?

Mark

[Eternal Optimist]

I've clearly misunderstood how risky shows are.

Henceforth I won't be attending without a Kevlar stab vest under a Hi viz jacket, hard hat with face visor, ear muffs, chainsaw trousers and steel toe capped rigger boots. And a mobile phone with a good no win, no fee solicitor's phone number on speed dial ready to make a claim.

[markaren76]

Ha ha! Nice one EtOp

I actually think the application form was derived from another application form intended for other commercial attendees who may be required by law to hold specific public liability insurance because they deal directly with the public at various events.

Probably might be better to just require all classic car display entrants to meet the normal legal requirements and have their insurance documentation available if requested.

Nuf sed. Mark

[PWK367]

I'm not convinced that a normal Classic Car Insurance policy offering cover for Static Displays and road use will adequately cover an owner and car on a Club Stand.

There is a difference between parking up your car as if you are at a Car Park and leaving it on display and parking up within a Club Stand area. On a Club Stand we show off and demonstrate our cars - open and close doors, bonnets and allow visitors to sit in the car. We show visitors around cars that we don't own, but which are on the club stand. Last time I was on a club stand I opened the bonnet of Ray Ferris's very pretty Pennant on numerous occasions so visitors could take photos or simply reminisce. There was always the possibility that in a moment of inattention or distraction (noisy over-revving on a neighbouring stand?) I might drop the bonnet down on someone's fingers. Who would have been liable? The Show Organisers? Certainly not Birdingbury! The Club? The stand Organiser? Me? The owner?

Some things roll downhill! Even a very small incident can be enormously worrying and the legal costs in defending against a claim of negligence can far outweigh the cost of settling a claim. It isn't unreasonable to want some reassurance that there will be support through the worry and distress not to mention any costs that may not be covered by a normal Classic Car Insurance.

As an aside I take exception to members concerns about this issue being dismissed as "hysteria".

[plockley]

Birdingbury introduced the requirement for entrants to produce a copy of their insurance policy before I joined their committee and it seems to me to be a reasonable requirement as I stated in my previous post.
By law every motor insurance policy "must insure such person,persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the policy in respect of any liability which may be incurred by him or them in respect of the death or bodily injury to any person or damage to property caused by,or arising out of ,the use of the vehicle on a road or other public place...."
That to my mind is public liability arising from the use of the vehicle (described on the Birdingbury form as "the entry") on the Showground ,a "public place",again as I stated in my earlier post.
I really cannot go further than that and if anyone is in any doubt they should speak to their insurance advisor and if they don't wish to enter then that is their privilege.
The situation is no different to any other show,all of which are public places.
If other shows do not check insurance cover it is a matter for their organisers.Unfortunately insurance information on the Motor Insurance Database is only available to the vehicle owner or his authorised agent so that is not an option for the Birdingbury organisers.
As for Eternal Optimist's post I speak as a retired personal injury lawyer who did no win no fee work.
The vast majority of such lawyers are not ambulance chasers .We would give advice to people attending the office and many people had quite justifiable claims arising out of other people's carelessness and negligence.
I can think of at least 6 examples of incidents in or just outside Showgrounds.
One was where someone slipped outside an exhibition hall where the showground owners had ignored warnings from the local authority of the dangers from the ground surface materials on a slope.The successful claim was against the landlords insurers for a serious fracture.
In another case of which I heard on reliable authority a vehicle ran away down a slope after a child left unattended in it accidentally released the handbrake.It smashed into and destroyed a caravan.Fortunately no-one was injured but any claim arising from that would be attributable to the vehicle insurer .If they did not carry insurance it is likely that the claim would have been brought,totally unjustifiably,against the show organisers.
In a third case a horse bolted at a show.Again any wise horse owner would have liability cover for that horse.
Incidents can arise also outside show grounds.For some years there had been a Wednesday evening show each June at the Blue Lias pub between Stockton and Long Itchington,which whilst attracting largely responsible classic vehicle owners,also attracted a handful of irresponsible people.
In 2011 a motorcycle leaving the show shot over the railway bridge just outside the show field straight into the back of a parked car.In 2012 there was a 3 car accident just over the railway bridge.In 2013 a group of pedestrians watching vehicles stupidly roaring away from the show had to jump into the hedge to avoid the owner of a car who lost control on the road and some suffered minor injuries.
Needless to say the pub landlord refused to allow organisers to have a show in 2014.
The above are 6 incidents at or near shows for Eternal Optimist to consider,all of which have been in the last 5 or 6 years.
Shows can and should be safe areas but only if people are responsible and careful ,drive safely,obey marshals and carry insurance.
The demise of the Blue Lias event shows what can happen when things get out of control.
The shows are dependent on volunteers' and landowners ' goodwill and if people ignore or oppose reasonable requirements they just won't happen.
On a final note the next W.Midlands Group meeting will be at the Navigation Lapworth on Thursday 19th February.Please check with Mike Wilkes,Group Organiser,that it's on if you intend to go along.
Peter Lockley

[johndoc]

Slightly off the main topic, but just to illustrate where the silly figures come from- up to 6 years ago, part of my business was collecting, repairing and delivering Plasma TV set to and from pubs and private houses. My Public Liability insurance company required cover of up to 10 million euro for this business type. When questioned about where such an enormous figure came from, the put me in touch with their underwriter.
His answer was that he must assume the absolute worse case scenario for any potential claim- he had to factor in the "possibility" that one of my repaired plasma TVs would catch fire in the middle of a packed pub, destroying the premises and business, and killing or seriously injuring several people.
As always with insurance companies- I did not accept this, but had no choice but to pay it.

[1957steve]

The chairman may be interested to learn that I am neither ignorant or hysterical and do not appreciate being referred to as such and I suspect that other members may well feel the same.

[Eternal Optimist]

......and I speak as an employer who is plagued by vexatious claims stimulated by a litigious culture fuelled by no win no fee lawyers.