Is it the end of the classic car movement?

[standardthread]

The government proposes to introduce ethanol 10 petrol (10% ethanol content) in the near future to reduce the country’s emissions.

As I understand it this fuel mixture is a more aggressive fuel. How will it effect seals and pipes in fuel systems, or is this a back door method of going after a minority, the classic car movement who contribute little in terms of overall percentage of emissions, as they have in banning coal?

[misterm]

Obviously we are already using 5% ethanol fuel (E5), so I suppose doubling the strength could be seen as a potential problem.

I believe that the FHBVC are fighting our corner and the government have said that they realise some 600,000 vehicles currently on the road will be potentially suffering issues from using E10 fuel. So they have said that E5 will still be available at no increased cost.

I drove down to Spa in my Austin Cambridge last September and E10 is already the normal unleaded fuel in several European countries. But Super is still E5, so it made no difference to me as I always fill with Super anyway in the UK.

But I think you are right, it is the end of the classic car movement. But fear not, I will hold my hand up and state that I will pay DOUBLE the scrap value for any classic car offered! Except VW Beetles!

[marshman]

Good question.

Firstly I don't think it is a covert back door move to getting rid of classic cars, too much money in it.

The devil is in the detail. Having read the FBHVC press release and other documents the first thing to note is the proposed legislation is to allow for UP TO 10% bioethanol in petrol. This does not mean it will have 10%. Secondly they have stated that they will make sure that % bioethanol fuel will be available for those vehicles that cannot use E10 - slightly cynical about that one - think Lead Replacement Petrol (LRP). There is reference in the article to the UK Bioethanol refinery closing, but that is old news and it reopened a year ago. My cynical take on it is it is a load of "greenwash", legislation being brought in to make it look like we are meeting our targets for the reduction of CO2 emissions. A target that could be me much more quickly if they taxed all the enormous SUV/Chelsea tractor type vehicles a lot more heavily to discourage people from buying them.

In the USA as far as I know they have had E10 for a few years now. Perhaps some of our US contributors could comment on problems or lack of? I have not seen many comments from overseas members on other forums specifically about E10 induced problems.

I rather think (and hope) it is yet another thing that will get everyone worked up and have no real longterm effect on our lives. Just like the following:

1. Disappearance of 2,3 and 5 star petrol - retune the carb and alter the ignition timing
2. Removal of lead from petrol - worst case scenario - rework you cylinder head and get hardened valve seats fitted
3. Removal of asbestos from brake linings and gaskets - (never noticed much difference on my cars)
4. So called banning of cellulose paint (still widely available for refinishing of historic cars)

The most vulnerable part of the fuel system that I am aware of on our generation of cars are the rubber hoses in the fuel system. The club sells a "kit" of ethanol proof hoses for the tank end for the 8's and 10's www.standardmotor.club/standard-8-10-etc/fuel-and-exhaust-system-components/standard-8-and-10---fuel-hoses-replacement-kit It would not be too hard to make up a flexi pipe for the fuel pump connection. As for the fact that it is hydroscopic and can cause corrosion issues on aluminium and brass parts this will be in extreme cases and occurs only when say a carburettor has been left standing all winter with it float chamber half full. So either use the car regularly or if worried drain the fuel out.

Personally I am not overly concerned.

I would as I say like to hear experiences of some USA owners.

Roger

[standardthread]

I'm a cynical old sod, my 'daily driver' for decades since I passed my test has been what have become classics (always Triumphs, latterly Standards and Triumphs)

We we're promised the availability of 4* for our cars in perpetuity (lead, valves etc.). Great during the fuel crisis in the 90's, I could fill up on four star easily, no queues, modern cars, no chance, empty forecourts and I drove on and filled up! Gone for years, false promises?

Sorry, don't trust politicians of any colour, or what they promise, and, potentially miles to fill up, on a product that 'goes off' if stored. Therefore, finding a garage prepared to store, and have the turnover is something else.

Don't forget the revenue that governments don't collect on 'Historic Vehicles'

[marshman]

As I said I wouldn't worry too much. I am pretty cynical as well and I can almost guarantee the "E5 for older vehicles" will fizzle out as quick as LRP did. BUT I think we will be OK with E10 - if a) it ever happens and b) it is actually 10%, as I said the proposed legislation allows for "up to 10%"

The government do not collect any excise duty from a lot of vehicles including all electric cars and most hybrids as well as a goodly number of others, my sons partner (ok girlfriend) has just bought a 12 plate BMW 1 series diesel - £0 Vehicle Excise Duty as its alleged CO2 emissions are <100g/km so I don't think they will target historic vehicles for that.

Personally I would be more worried about the effects of the new flu bug thingy!! I am hoping for 14 days self isolation in my garage

Roger

[nfavell]

iirc As far as the governmant is concerned, leaded petrol is still available. It's just the fact that no forecourts choose to stock petrol as the 'gallonage' makes it unprofitable. Lets bear in mind that a typical forecourt might only be have a couple of pence profit on each litre of fuel sold, and out of that comes all the costs of running a forecourt, in fact they make more money from selling a pint of milk than they do from selling you fuel - hence every forecourt now has a mini supermarket. So I can see E5 fuel being available, but not enough demand for fore courts to stock it.
Just as you can buy lead replacement additives and octane boosters to bring your everyday (E5) fuel back up to 4 star quality you can already buy fuel stabilisers to prevent the E10 fuel from separating and getting water sitting in the bottom of your fuel tank - more expense I know, or don't let your fuel sit around in the tank, drive the car and use it up.
And I've got enough problems with 'car oxidising virus' to worry about things that I can't change

Nick

[Phil Hetherington]

Mar 9, 2020 14:21:29 GMT 1 nfavell said:

iirc As far as the governmant is concerned, leaded petrol is still available. It's just the fact that no forecourts choose to stock petrol as the 'gallonage' makes it unprofitable.

It’s not quite ‘no’ forecourts, Nick. I do know of one, and it isn’t a million miles away from where you live either.