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Post by plockley on Feb 6, 2015 22:12:21 GMT 1
Wearing my organiser's hat as a newly appointed member of the Birdingbury organising committee I am anxious to avoid being sued and equally anxious to ensure that all appropriate insurances are in place for everyone attending the show. The 6 recent incidents to which I referred in my last post are only the ones of which I have personal knowledge and illustrate that shows can go wrong. I apologise if my remarks are construed as insulting but I hope my quote from the Road Traffic Act as to the definition of the requirement for insurance was helpful in removing some apparent misunderstandings. Having the perfectly sensible requirement to show insurance described as stupid in a previous post is particularly unhelpful and I view that as equally insulting to the Birdingbury organisers. Show organising and indeed running clubs is a thankless task but without organisers and site owners we wouldn't have shows and a hobby to enjoy. Think of the Blue Lias show mentioned in my last post.It illustrates the way things could go. I hope this post will be an end to the matter. Peter Lockley P.S. In answer to a query by PWK 367 a bonnet crashing down and falling on someone's fingers would in my view arise from the use of a motor vehicle in a public place and thus be a compulsory risk requiring to be covered by a motor policy though the Club public liability policy would probably also cover it whilst on the Club stand. Showing a car engine at a show is a reasonable activity but leaving a bonnet open on an unattended car with a precarious prop is however an accident waiting to happen in my view.
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Post by markaren76 on Feb 6, 2015 22:49:33 GMT 1
I'm confused!
Public liability insurance is a specific type of policy which is (as far as my own experience in contract management has been) normally a requirement of a business. Not members of the general public., even if they drive classic cars.
I for one will not be purchasing specific insurance to take part in displays. Especially where they are static. If I am driving I would fully expect my 'normal' classic car insurance to cover me as it is legally obliged to do.
To me the situations described by Peter appear to Be for the most part normal' motor insurance claim situations. Can anyone confirm if they have specific 'public liability' cover included in their 'normal' classic car or Other car insurance policy. I cannot find it in mine and yes, this "hysterical" person has checked the small print.
Sorry to ramble. I do think this still needs to be openly clarified for all
Mark Peter cannot make the meeting in Feb due to the wife having an op the day before. Perhaps we can discuss further if I can get there in March.
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Post by johndoc on Feb 6, 2015 23:52:41 GMT 1
Public Liability insurance is only required by persons or entities who are operating as a business- not private individuals who are simply taking part in a show, i.e, not for profit, either monetary or for other enhancement. The club or entity who organised the event would be the legal entity who would be sued in the event of a claim. They would therefore have to try to pass the liability on to the owner of the vehicle involved. This would then result in the owner of the car having to have insurance cover, which extended to displaying the vehicle in a show, etc, which almost every Classic insurance policy covers, almost by definition- it is one of the things which makes a classic insurance policy different to a "normal" policy?
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Post by plockley on Feb 7, 2015 12:04:12 GMT 1
Thanks for the post John.You have highlighted the fact that the problem is the definition of public liability. Even most household contents policies have public liability cover for the owner to cover his or her personal liability to the public. Examples are liability for a roof tile sliding off and hitting someone or say a mother pushing a baby in a pram and colliding with someone,causing an injury resulting in a claim. As you rightly say almost all classic motor policies cover liability at a show for the vehicle and even if not the minimum cover required for any motor policy covers liability for the vehicle on a road or other public place e.g. A show.Of course there could be more than one insurance company dealing with any claim,but when in practice I came across that often and they would normally agree that one of the companies would deal with the claim. Peter Lockley
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Post by Ian Leggett on Feb 7, 2015 21:31:15 GMT 1
My policy clearly states that I am covered for UNLIMITED AMOUNT for death or injury to any other person including passengers. Also for loss or damage for property I am covered for £20m. Also up to £5m for any costs or expenses arising from any one incident. So I query why your policy does not have this statement as it merely confirms that you have a CLASSIC POLICY (Which is different from a normal car policy)and that you are covered. It is not in the small print it is boldly stated on the Policy Summary. That is all the organisers are asking for. Regards Ian.
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Post by markaren76 on Feb 7, 2015 23:06:15 GMT 1
Interesting Ian. Perhaps the issue here is the terminology used I.e. "Public liability"
My classic car policy does indicate... SIGNIFICANT FEATURES AND BENEFITS: Your policy includes the following features, which are explained in detail in your Policy Booklet: Cover Comprehensive Off the Road (I.e. In my garage or home property) Cover. Legal liability for death or injury to any other person, including passengers. Included Excluded
Legal liability for damage to other people’s property up to £20,000,000. Included Excluded
Damage to your vehicle Included Included W Voluntary work & ‘indemnity to principal’ cover. Included. Excluded
Cover under the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 up to £5m – only applies to policies in the name of a company. Included Excluded
The policy also states... Your vehicle will only be covered if you are using it in the way agreed on your certificate of motor insurance, or any endorsements. Use in connection with voluntary work by any authorised driver is permitted by this insurance. This insurance also provides cover while you use your vehicle for: static and road safety rallies; or other rallies as long as no merit is attached to the competitor’s performance while driving, except in relation to good road behaviour and meeting the Highway Code; or treasure hunts as long as the route is not more than 100 miles (160 kilometres).
Mark
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Post by markaren76 on Feb 7, 2015 23:11:12 GMT 1
Also perhaps what some people think is a standard policy is not actually so. Different insurance companies provide different policy contracts. That's why they are different !
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Post by Phil Hetherington on Feb 8, 2015 2:33:46 GMT 1
Peter, I apologise if my post earlier in the thread caused offence but I did not say that a requirement to show insurance was stupid, I was referring to the need to hold public liability insurance which, as others have since pointed out, is widely understood to be a completely different product. If that is not what the organisers meant then maybe the wording on their entry form wants looking at. Why not say that "classic car owners must have a recognised classic car policy covering at least £xM of cover for injuries to third parties", or whatever? It seems to me that it is the wording on the form which is the problem, not the insurance policies.
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Post by markaren76 on Feb 8, 2015 3:02:41 GMT 1
Well said Phil
Ditto for me.
That is the point I was blundering to get across, but clearly not as well as yourself. Wish I was a wordsmith!
What say Peter? Seems to make practical sense
Mark
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Post by plockley on Feb 8, 2015 19:13:09 GMT 1
After all these posts,which to me seem to have eventually reached the conclusion which I put forward in the first place,I will suggest a rewording on next year's form. After all Birdingbury are simply seeking proof of insurance cover for the vehicle on a road or other public place as the Road Traffic Act puts it. Peter Lockley
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Post by thirtyfour10 on Feb 28, 2015 22:36:06 GMT 1
I have been involved with organizing club stands for a few years in the midlands since the retirement of Alan Withey.My understanding of cars which were entered for static events should be road legal ie have current insurance,mot,and tax if required.The show organiser/company would have public liability for there protection.her is what i feel is important for all to know "WHEN A MEMBER OF THE STANDARD CLUB IS ORGANISING A STAND ON BEHALF OF THE CLUB,HE OR SHE MUST INFORM OUR VERY ACCOMMODATING SECRETARY LYNDA HOMER OF DATES LOCATIONS ETC.SHE WILL THEN INFORM OUR INSURANCE COMPANY OF THE DETAILS. ANY INCIDENTS WOULD BE COVERED PROVIDING THERE IS AT LEAST ONE MEMBER OFFICIATING ON THE STAND AT ALL TIMES This as been the normal practice as far back as I can remember.Members who attend my organized events will know that i stay on the stand day and night as extra security.I have decided not to attend Birdingbury after reading the the list of what i must and must not do in the form presented,it seems that other members are like minded and feel they can not attend with out this 5 mil insurance cover, Midlands group contact member Mike Wilkes
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Post by plockley on Mar 2, 2015 19:01:52 GMT 1
The Club does indeed have public liability cover in respect of official Club stands.Lynda Homer as Club secretary is not required to notify the insurers of such stands but for a Club stand to be an official Club stand the Club needs to be aware of and approve its being a Club stand ,hence the need for the Club secretary to be notified. As for the Club's insurance cover that is in respect of public liability ,I.e.the Club and stand organisers' liability to the public. It would not cover a car being driven on the rally field e.g. To and from the arena which would involve driving a vehicle ON A ROAD OR OTHER PUBLIC PLACE which is a compulsory risk requiring the vehicle to be covered by insurance under the Road Traffic Acts ,as well as the Birdingbury organisers. It would also not cover theft of a car from a Club stand or damage to it whilst on a Club stand unless caused by the negligence of the Club e.g. A falling flagpole or gazebo ,hence the importance of vehicles carrying insurance as I've said in previous posts. If anyone brought a half restored car to a show ,whether it could be driven or not ,such a car would need insurance cover for a show. Peter Lockley
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Post by Kentishphil on Mar 2, 2015 20:34:39 GMT 1
. If anyone brought a half restored car to a show ,whether it could be driven or not ,such a car would need insurance cover for a show. Peter Lockley Interesting!! As often a wreck on a trailer is brought to a Car show/rally. This exhibit often generates some interest. Not sure if one can just insure a non-runner for a day. Would the cost and time to set up the insurance , put off this type of exhibit?
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Post by johndoc on Mar 2, 2015 21:26:22 GMT 1
Possibly a can of worms being opened here, as bringing a "half restored" car to a show, and even working on it as part of the show, is becoming increasingly popular. Practical Classics mag, and the Wheeler Dealers guys spring to mind. To be honest, its a concept that would add to the attraction of most shows. If the general concensus is that these vehicles require "special' insurance, perhaps the industry as a whole would need to take legal advise?
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Post by markaren76 on Mar 2, 2015 21:45:59 GMT 1
Personally I think someone held the wrong end of a stick and doesn't know how to admit it
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